Re: The Plumbline School

14 Comments

  1. Joseph Hutchison
    Joseph Hutchison February 23, 2009 at 8:22 pm .

    Thanks for the correction, Gary. I’ve been misattributing that for years!

  2. Gary B. Fitzgerald
    Gary B. Fitzgerald February 23, 2009 at 8:03 pm .

    For the record:<BR/><BR/>"I don’t care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members."<BR/> <BR/>Groucho Marx

  3. Joseph Hutchison
    Joseph Hutchison February 22, 2009 at 5:07 pm .

    I see your point, J.H., and appreciate your gravestone goal. Personally, I can’t bring myself to toss out the distinction between the art and the artist, although certain artists make it very tempting. A poet friend of mine who happens to be Jewish refuses to read Pound or Eliot or Darwish. When James Dickey supported the war in Vietnam I was sorely tempted to boycott his books, but I couldn’t

  4. Joseph Duemer
    Joseph Duemer February 21, 2009 at 5:59 pm .

    This comment has been removed by the author.

  5. J.H. Stotts
    J.H. Stotts February 21, 2009 at 8:33 am .

    joe,<BR/><BR/>about whose work i wouldn’t consider out of distaste for the crimes of their personal lives–pound was politically perverse, which is a little different than sexual abuse. i’ve always thought that, as soon as woody allen dies my interest might peak. same goes for polanski. or jerry lee lewis. etc.<BR/>the idea that they’re commercial artists, that so many of their peers are

  6. Henry Gould
    Henry Gould February 21, 2009 at 1:21 am .

    Joseph, thanks. Yes… this matter of name-spelling… I guess it&#39;s better than name-calling… the spelling of YOUR name has also been corrected!<BR/><BR/>We&#39;re trying NOT to be so polemical… but perhaps &quot;normative&quot; is a scary word. It probably helps to know that the &quot;Plumbline&quot; was triggered in part as a reaction against the FLARF phenomenon, which seems

  7. Joseph Hutchison
    Joseph Hutchison February 20, 2009 at 11:43 pm .

    Hello, J. H.—regarding your statement that "i’ve avoided all [Woody Allen’s] movies, since sometimes there are are higher moral prerogatives than art or wit" … are you objecting to his private (or all-too-public) behavior and therefore avoiding his movies? If so, so you also refuse to look at paintings by Caravaggio or read poems by Ezra Pound? Just curious….

  8. Joseph Hutchison
    Joseph Hutchison February 20, 2009 at 11:39 pm .

    I believe I’ve gotten "Duemer" corrected wherever I used it. Again, my apologies….

  9. Joseph Hutchison
    Joseph Hutchison February 20, 2009 at 11:35 pm .

    Henry, I <I>swear</I> it was unintentional, my misspelling of "Duemer," but in fairness, he misspelled my name too (there’s no "n" in the middle). Gad! No offense intended….<BR/><BR/>I also appreciate your clarifications (especially of "inclusive") and won’t quibble about them. I do think there’s a lot of free-floating polemics going on, and maybe it would help if you named names. A "normative"

  10. Henry Gould
    Henry Gould February 20, 2009 at 4:02 pm .

    Joseph,<BR/><BR/>I want respond a little more.. &amp; I do appreciate your careful elaboration of differences over the vocabulary. For taking it seriously.<BR/><BR/>&quot;Normative&quot; : by this I mean a poetry that has some appreciable relation – pro or con – with generally-understood, basic human ethics. Much poetry of the last century seems more interested in forming its own autonomous

  11. Henry Gould
    Henry Gould February 20, 2009 at 11:02 pm .

    Joseph,<BR/><BR/>I want respond a little more.. &amp; I do appreciate your careful elaboration of differences over the vocabulary. For taking it seriously.<BR/><BR/>&quot;Normative&quot; : by this I mean a poetry that has some appreciable relation – pro or con – with generally-understood, basic human ethics. Much poetry of the last century seems more interested in forming its own autonomous

  12. J.H. Stotts
    J.H. Stotts February 20, 2009 at 10:40 pm .

    sorry, joe, i’m gonna get off your back.<BR/>if pressed, i guess i’d take your position. and…i am.

  13. Henry Gould
    Henry Gould February 20, 2009 at 10:34 pm .

    Joseph,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the Karl Shapiro reference! That’s very interesting. Being "bourgeois" is so very radical these days.<BR/><BR/>But let me ask you – what do you think Whitman was referring to, when he wrote (in "Starting from Paumanok"):<BR/><BR/>"O such themes–equalities! O divine average!"<BR/><BR/>- because this is what we’re talking about with "middling". <BR/><BR/>By the way,

  14. J.H. Stotts
    J.H. Stotts February 20, 2009 at 10:02 pm .

    what if this plumbline is a convoluted call for ‘clarity?'<BR/><BR/>middling is, of course, an irony, as is the sense that any school actually has good poets AND adherence to any of its tenets (how good of an objectivist was WCW (he was a good one at his worst, i guess)).<BR/><BR/>the best irony is woody allen’s, though, because of course there is a lot more between the lines than simple

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